Episode 02: Jason Swan Clark

Interview Date: 27 October 2019. Interviewer: Dr Simon Machin. Research and questions by Dr Simon Machin.

Interview with Revd Dr Jason Swan Clark: jasonswanclark.org

Jason is a church planter, pastor and academic, based in the church he and his wife planted in 1997 on the south side of London, England. Jason's PhD in theology diagnosed the relationship between the development of Evangelicalism and consumer culture.

Jason is a board member for the Vineyard Institute, helping oversee theological training for his church movement around the world. Jason designed and leads a Doctor of Leadership, for Portland Seminary, since 2009.

Timed Interview Summary

0:00 – 16:15 Childhood Abuse, 1970s working class life in Luton

Early life in Luton, England, a post-war industrial new town, a few miles north of London. Ancestors are coal-miners who moved south to the town as an extended family to seek work.  Luton is a multi-cultural centre for immigration. The young Jason moves between white working-class and majority-ethnic council estates.  Mother suffers from mental illness which expresses itself through violence towards her husband and physical, mental and other abuse of Jason. The ‘potato incident’. Mother’s strange combination of aspirational and resentful attitudes.   

16:16 – 35:55 Father’s Abandonment and Bigamy

Positive influence of Thatcherism on the Clark family’s aspirations in education and housing. Mother arranges for Jason to travel across the town to a good school.  Precocious reader, importance of public libraries. Borrows Chronicles of Narnia and The Hobbit but pleads with librarian to have a passport to the adult section. Books as escape from abuse. Profound importance of C. S. Lewis. Teaches himself to read the Narnia books and decides to read all seven of them seven times. The ‘rubber tree incident’. Jason hides in wardrobe and wants to escape to Narnia. Father deserts family. Jason takes responsibility for mother and brother, ‘an old head on young shoulders.’   Only meets father again when Jason is nearly 40.

 35:56 – 46:59 Nature and Nurture

A debate about nature and nurture, as Jason seems ‘innately middle-class’ from childhood. Has always loved classical music, and plays in National Youth Orchestra. A different creature from his parents, a cuckoo in the nest. Bullied at secondary school until discovers self-confidence through rugby. Suddenly understands that his height and physicality allow him to fight back.  

 47:00 – 58:45 Finding Narnia 1986

A Christian aunt invites Jason’s mother to a Baptist church. Jason goes as his mother’s ‘minder’ to the morning service and chooses to go back to the evening service. The youth pastor explains Christianity as an adventure which may lead to his life getting worse, but will give him meaning and purpose, something to live for and something to die for. Jason responds and on the first day as a Christian realizes that it is not his spiritual destiny to become prime minister (which he had mapped out as his future) The church provides him with healthy models for family life. Very nurturing and releasing. After three years of support he goes off to London School of Theology.

 58:46 – 1:08:23 Nervous Breakdown 1999

Interview moves on to Jason’s first day as a Senior Pastor of a Vineyard Church after working as an investment manager in the City of London. After waking from a very disorienting nightmare, has a panic attack. Goes through a dark night of the soul dealing with the submerged parts of his undeveloped self, which have been masked by his reputation as a wise head on young shoulders and workaholism. Reassesses his need for academic input alongside the practical life of a church planter. Through a psychometric test he comes to realise that his strengths are an unusual combination of the intellectual/learner and activator/achiever.   

1:08:24 – 1:12:34  Navigating the Post Christian World

Starts to realise that his greatest challenge as a pastor is encountering Christians who have lost interest in attending church. Understands it as a sociological trend amongst white middle-class believers who have come to see the church primarily as a dispenser of religious goods and services. Trying to understand the causes leads to a doctorate exploring the relationship between evangelicalism and capitalism.

 1:12:35 – 1:35:51  Doctoral Research: What’s wrong and right with Evangelicalism?

A discussion of the key themes of Jason’s doctoral research. Its title points to the mutations that occur when modern evangelicalism meets capitalism. The background to what distinguishes evangelicalism from other forms of Christianity.    Evangelicalism’s particular emphasis on the work of the Cross, the need for conversion, a high view of scripture and activism. Its growth out of Catholicism into Protestantism and Calvinism. Martin Luther and the idea of life calling which is succeeded by the subjectivism of Methodism. Does capitalism lead to Protestantism? Or does the individualism of Protestantism increase wealth creation?   In the contemporary world, a discussion of how the danger that life improvements arising from wealth creation can lead to Christians now viewing ‘Providence’ (divine blessing) through a capitalist matrix.  As a pastor Jason has observed unchurched Christians only returning to the fold briefly for a ‘servicing’ when life has not lived up to the perfect spouse, job or life style before leaving again.   

1:35:52 – 1:39:06 Dynamism of Protestantism and Evangelicalism

Discussion of which historical period might have best combined the spiritual stability of the Catholic tradition and the dynamism of Protestantism. There is the example of the Methodist John Wesley, who combined engagement in the world with dynamic Christianity. 

1:39:07 - 1:48:28 The Potential Future for Evangelicalism

The great possibilities opened up to Christians in the modern world. Jason’s experience of speaking internationally and leading a global doctoral ministry programme at Portland Seminary. Perhaps evangelicals can reclaim their own rich heritage.  The heart of evangelicalism has never been signing up for an easy life. What we love shapes what we do, so the recovery of balanced evangelicalism will involve a fundamental change in habits. Currently the situation is challenging.   

 1:48:29 – 1:54:57 Sacralised Narcism and Theology of Suffering

Summing up: the inevitability of life being painful and the need to face up to responsibility in the face of suffering, if one is to mature. Ironically, Jason’s capacity to endure pain, which grew from an abused childhood in an atheist family, has enabled him to endure the shocks of life whilst retaining committed to church community. He hears stories of youth group members from secure and stable Christian backgrounds who no longer engage in church life. The interview ends with two asides. The lectures of Jordan Peterson, who talks of the need to face pain and face up to responsibility, appear to be popular because of a renewed hunger amongst the young to hear this uncompromising truth. In mindfulness, there is a growing realization that the meditative practices need to be reconnected to the traditions from which they come.